with Stephen Crittenden
On Wednesday 02/04/2003
Full transcript
Summary:
Federal Education Minister Brendan Nelson last week sent a letter to state education ministers, asking them to ensure that Islamic schools were not "encouraging anti-Christian and anti-Western feeling" in their students. Dr Nelson says he is confident that Islamic schools are, in fact, toeing the line on curriculum and content, and that he is simply responding to public concern. But a storm has erupted over whether or not the Minister is putting pressure on Australian Muslims at a particularly sensitive time. Also: hundreds of thousands of Muslims in Indonesia demonstrated against the Iraq war on the weekend - but the demonstrations were generally peaceful, and contrasted strongly with the angry protests that greeted the US attack on the Taliban. We look at Indonesian opposition to the war. And retired Cardinal Hans Hermann Groer, forced by the Vatican to relinquish his church duties in 1998 amid allegations he sexually molested young boys, has died at the age of 83.
Details or Transcript:
Stephen Crittenden: Welcome to the program. This week: protests against the war in Indonesia, and we mark the passing of Austria’s Cardinal Hans Hermann Groer.
But first: with Australia embroiled in a controversial war in Iraq, you might think that now isn’t an especially appropriate time to be raising questions about whether Islamic schools are anti-Western, or anti-Christian. But late last month, Federal Education Minister Brendan Nelson wrote to all State Education Ministers around the country, raising what he described as the “sensitive issue” of Islamic schools.
That letter was tabled in the Queensland Parliament last Thursday by Queensland’s Education Minister Anna Bligh, who accused Brendan Nelson of giving ministerial weight to anti-Islamic prejudice. Queensland Premier Peter Beattie later told reporters that the letter was an example of “divisive, base politics” on the part of the Howard government.
And Brendan Nelson’s carefully crafted letter certainly is a minor ministerial masterpiece. He says “I have received a number of letters from concerned citizens across the country, who feel that the teaching in Islamic schools may be encouraging anti-Christian and anti-Western feeling in the students enrolled in them”. Dr Nelson then says he is confident that such concerns are groundless. But – just in case – he goes on to point out that it is the responsibility of State and Territory governments to ensure that all non-government schools are meeting their legal teaching and curriculum requirements, and that “in these times it is important that we can assure the wider Australian community that State inspection regimes are rigorous”.
Well, there’s probably no need to ask Pauline Hanson’s supporters what they make of a letter like this, but Islamic community leaders are divided. Some have responded angrily to the implication that Islamic schools need to be treated with suspicion. While others feel the Education Minister is responsibly trying to ensure that unfounded negative sentiment about Islamic schools doesn’t spread.
The President of the Australian Federation of Islamic Councils, Dr Ameer Ali, spoke to David Rutledge.
Ameer Ali: There’s no suggestion on Islamic schools. The Minister was quite confident that the schools are following the curriculum and are subject to all the conditions laid down by the government. Therefore there is no extraordinary concern about the schools. In fact, he was expressing his concern about those people who raised these issues. And our feeling is that if that is a concern for the government, they should come and inspect what we are doing – the schools are open, free, and they can have their inspection and come to their own conclusions after seeing what is going on.
David Rutledge: But isn’t there an implication – if the Federal Education Minister tells State Education Ministers that they’d better make sure that the Islamic schools are above reproach, isn’t there an implication there that they might not be toeing the line on teaching and curriculum?
Ameer Ali: Well, if you read too deeply into the letter, you might come to that conclusion – but for me it’s not very much of a concern, that letter. I think he’s responding – in fact by being a Minister, he had to respond to the people who raised this issue. I want to say that the Muslim schools are trying to provide a well-rounded education, which blends the Islamic values with the Australian values.
David Rutledge: There must be points, though, at which Australian and Islamic values really can’t be easily reconciled.
Ameer Ali: Now, which one? Tell me one?
David Rutledge: Attitudes to sexuality, for example.
Ameer Ali: Sexuality. Why can’t it blend? Because do we mean to say that every Australian wants to have this free sex? No. Do we mean to say that every Muslim says that [women] mustn’t mix with males? No. So there is a compromise possible. All we are doing is to have a concerted effort, through our education system, that there must be a section where we teach each other’s cultural values – and unless we do this, we are going to continue with the sort of myopic view about each other’s society.
David Rutledge: And what would you have Muslim students taught about Australian cultural values?
Ameer Ali: Of course, things like giving a fair go, and the concept of mateship, egalitarianism, a sense of patriotism, loyalty to the country.
David Rutledge: You also mentioned to me in a previous conversation that Australians are happy-go-lucky, they have a sort of irreverence in the culture, and that that’s something that Islamic Australians should be taking on board.
Ameer Ali: Of course for example, Australians – take for example the image of Jesus Christ: Australians don’t feel any reservation about making a mockery of Jesus Christ. But the Muslims will not tolerate that. The reverence that the Muslims give to religion is much higher – which was even accepted by the Pope himself – than the normal Australian. For example, some of the plays that were staged – “Corpus Christi”, one of the plays staged in England – there was a fatwa on this play, that the writer must be sentenced to death. But that’s very extreme.
David Rutledge: Are you saying that you think there should be less reverence?
Ameer Ali: No, no, more reverence for religion. Not less reverence.
David Rutledge: So you’re not saying that Muslim Australians should learn to laugh at Jesus Christ or at the Prophet?
Ameer Ali: There are things to be laughed at, there are things to take seriously. If you just laugh at something about Jesus Christ, the Muslims don’t take it easily, because for them Jesus is a more respectable personality. And in fact if you don’t respect Jesus, you can’t be a good Muslim.
Stephen Crittenden: The easygoing Dr Ameer Ali, President of the Australian Federation of Islamic Councils.
Well among those who think Brendan Nelson is using wedge politics to inflame prejudice is Queensland’s Labor Education Minister, Anna Bligh, who ignited the controversy last week by tabling the letter in State Parliament. Anna Bligh spoke to David Rutledge.
Anna Bligh: In my view, the unanswered question in this whole saga is why the Federal Minister felt any obligation to send a “please explain” to State Ministers. The approval processes for non-government schools are public, they are transparent, they should be well understood by every Commonwealth Minister and his or her department. Why you would need to seek any assurance about the rigor of those processes is beyond me, and to do so in the context of alleged concerns about the quality of Islamic education, is I think a very unfortunate juxtaposition that could have easily been avoided. Whether that was Minister Nelson’s intention or not is not known to me, but I think this has potentially fanned the flames of prejudice amongst some in our community.
David Rutledge: But people have pointed out, in Dr Nelson’s defence, that he’s really just doing his job – that if he receives complaints from his constituents, then he has to do something about it, and passing on those concerns in private correspondence is an appropriate way of going about it.
Anna Bligh: Well, that is one construction on the facts. My own view is that as the Federal Minister for Education, he has at his fingertips all of the facts that he would need to immediately allay any concerns that are brought to his attention. Sending a “please explain” to State Ministers, in my view, elevates those concerns, gives them some gravitas that they do not warrant. I think in Australia we have a very long history – that many people will recall in the 1950s, 60s and 70s – of a very heated sectarian debate about the place of religious schools in our education system. Those of us who went to religious schools – like I did, and many others during those years – will recall that they were very difficult times. I think those times are behind us, and I would hate to see that sort of religious sectarianism re-emerge in our understanding of Australia’s education system. These are difficult times in our country and the place of people of an Islamic faith is one that’s very sensitive in the community. And people who occupy positions of public responsibility should exercise that responsibility in a very careful way, and I don’t believe that the Federal Minister has done that.
David Rutledge: On this question, just finally, of inflaming public prejudice: Dr Nelson’s office said that the letter was a private correspondence, and that tabling the letter in Parliament was a much more inflammatory act than writing it in the first place. Did you have any qualms at all about going public with the letter in the way that you did?
Anna Bligh: I can understand that Dr Nelson would prefer that these “please explains” to State Ministers were kept out of the public arena, because it would have kept this particular controversy away from him. But I think it’s disingenuous, I think it is shockingly disingenuous for the Federal Minister to have taken this action in response to these concerns. Because by the virtue of doing it, the Federal Minister fans a perception that maybe there is something to be answered, just perhaps there’s a question mark there. And I don’t think there’s any room for those sorts of question marks.
Stephen Crittenden: Queensland Education Minister, Anna Bligh. We did invite Brendan Nelson onto the program, but our invitation was declined. Labor’s Shadow Federal Education spokesperson Jenny Macklin was also unavailable because she’s overseas at the moment.
Now, Brendan Nelson isn’t someone we normally associate with wedge politics, but Jenny Macklin’s office has drawn our attention to the fact that Dr Nelson’s press secretary these days is none other than Ross Hampton, former press secretary to Peter Reith, and well-known for his involvement in the Tampa incident. Also working on Brendan Nelson’s staff is Catherine Murphy, formerly a senior adviser to the Prime Minister who, as I understand it, was instrumental in Wik. One thing we’ve learnt from observing the Bush Administration in recent weeks, is that the real story can often be found through tracing the names of the special advisors, the private staff members, and the department heads.
At the commencement of the American-led campaign in Iraq, there were some nervous warnings that our nearest neighbour, Indonesia, could be a dangerous tinderbox ready to explode with Muslim anger at what Muslims around the world are calling a war against Islam. As we’ve seen, there have been angry demonstrations right across the Muslim world, and last Sunday 100,000 people came out to protest on the streets of Jakarta, the largest anti-war demonstration yet seen in Indonesia.
But rather surprisingly, perhaps, it was a peaceful march, with something of a family atmosphere – dominated by Islamic groups, but also featuring Christians, Buddhists, women’s groups and NGOs. It stood in stark contrast to the violent demonstrations that greeted the US bombing of Afghanistan in October, 2001.
Well Dadi Darmadi and Najahan Musyfak are two young Islamic academics visiting Australia at the moment. Dadi Darmadi is a Lecturer in Comparative Religion at Jakarta’s State Institute of Islamic Studies, and Najahan Musyfak is Deputy Secretary to the Executive Board of NU, or Nahdlatul Ulama, Indonesia’s largest Islamic organisation, once run by former Indonesian President Wahid. We invited them into the studio to tell us about the complexity of the Indonesian response to this war.
Dadi Darmadi: Generally, we can divide it into two perspectives. The first one, some people perceive that this is religious. But another perspective says that this is not a religious issue but a humanitarian issue.
Stephen Crittenden: Yes, a lot of people in the Muslim world have seen it as an attack on Islam. President Megawati a few weeks assured our Prime Minister John Howard that she didn’t see it as an attack on Islam. Is that view shared more widely, do you think, among Indonesians?
Dadi Darmadi: I would say yes, there is a major shift since September 11 and the US retaliation against Afghanistan, which most Muslims in Indonesia perceived as a US war against Islam. And the street demonstrations during the war against Afghanistan was joined mostly by the Muslims. But now, we see in the streets of Jakarta and other major cities, they’re not only Muslims who held the protest in the street.
Stephen Crittenden: The protests last weekend in Jakarta, they crossed religious lines, there were Buddhists, there were Christians, there were Muslims.
Dadi Darmadi: Yes, although we have to acknowledge still that there are a small number of people – like the leader of the Front Pembela Islam, Habib Rizieq Shihab, in the first couple of days of the war against Iraq – saying that “we will send some, a number of Muslim people, going for jihad to Baghdad”. But then a few days later, some other Muslim leaders criticised this decision, saying “this is ridiculous to do that, because we know Saddam Hussein is not a representation of a Muslim country”. But many Muslims still feel that Baghdad is traditionally the symbol of the greatness of Islam in the past, and the war against Iraq now can be considered as the Second Fall of Baghdad. But for many, I think, who rejected the idea of war against Iraq, it is because many civilians will be the victims, and from the very beginning, many people ask if war really is required for this, I mean just to topple down Saddam Hussein from power.
Stephen Crittenden: And Najahan Musyfak, how is Saddam Hussein seen by Indonesians, do you think?
Najahan Musyfak: In Indonesia, the majority of Muslims feel that Saddam Hussein is a Muslim symbol in the Middle East. That Islamic leader has announced that Iraq is not a Muslim country, but yes, we agree that Baghdad is a symbol of Islamic civilisation in the past. And why Islamic leaders, a couple of weeks ago, met with the Minister of Foreign Affairs, in order to build up a good relationship between Islamic community and the government, how to deal with the problem of Iraq in Indonesia. And they said that it is better for Muslims in Indonesia not to go to Iraq for jihad. But jihad doesn’t mean by sword or by gun, jihad also can be done by giving funds, money, and other things, that can be used in Iraq. This is what the Islamic leaders said, and we agree about that.
Stephen Crittenden: Do you think, Dadi, that perhaps there isn’t the level of anti-Americanism in Indonesia that we maybe see in the Middle East? I hear that in Jakarta there are still big crowds of people queuing up to see Chicago with Rene Zellweger, that that’s all still happening as normal.
Dadi Darmadi: Right. This is what we see every hour in our television, all of them are American programs. But yes, in the first couple of days of the war against Iraq, there were protests in Bandung for example, and in Macassar in south Sulawesi; people got together in front of Kentucky Fried Chicken, for example, McDonald’s and they put up a big paper saying that we prohibit Indonesians to buy foods in this place, because it’s considered haram, or something like that. It’s prohibited. But again, the attitude of anti-Americanism has been growing steadily in many places in Indonesia since September 11. I think America is mostly perceived by many Muslims in Indonesia as having close ties with Israel, and is always mishandling the problems in the Middle East, for example.
Stephen Crittenden: And what about Australia? There’s certainly a view here that Australia’s involvement in this war with Iraq has done us a lot of damage in the region. Is that how you see us or not?
Dadi Darmadi: The latest development of the protest demonstrations that I see in Indonesia also shows a much more clear message given by many community leaders, saying “it’s not that we are against the people of America, or the people of Australia, or the people of Britain – but more towards the Bush Administration or the Australian government”.
Stephen Crittenden: I mean, Dadi, for example, is there an awareness among Indonesians that so many Australians have been out protesting on the streets against the war?
Dadi Darmadi: Yes, this is also interesting, that some young writers write interesting articles in the newspapers in Indonesia, saying “look, this time it’s not appropriate to put the West against Islam, because we have seen so many people in the West themselves – in France, Germany, in Britain, in North America, in Australia, in Sydney and Melbourne – we’ve seen on the television that even more people held street demonstrations than we have had in Indonesia”. So we quickly understand that this is more for humanitarian reasons than religion.
Stephen Crittenden: Dadi Darmadi and Najahan Musyfak.
This week, Austrian Catholics are again reliving one of the most traumatic periods in their recent history. In fact, it’s fair to say that you would have to go back to the time of Adolf Hitler to find an Austrian Catholic who has caused as much damage to the Catholic Church as was caused by Cardinal Hans Hermann Groer, who died this week aged 83.
Groer, a Benedictine, was Cardinal Archbishop of Vienna from 1986 to 1995, an ultra-conservative who succeeded the much loved Cardinal Konig (still alive and going strong in his 90s) and who was himself succeeded by the Cardinal Christoph von Schonborn. Just as Cardinal Groer was preparing to retire in 1995, he was engulfed in a sexual abuse scandal which rocked Europe, involving a school where he had been headmaster more than twenty years before. Then in 1998 there was another series of allegations involving a number of seminarians.
At the height of the Groer scandal, an estimated fifty thousand Austrian Catholics formally severed their ties with the Church in a single year.
Christa Pongratz-Lippitt has been the Vienna correspondent for the Catholic magazine The Tablet for many years, and she agreed to tell a story which is unfamiliar to most Australians.
Christa Pongratz-Lippitt: One of Austria’s best-known weekly political magazines called Profile published an article in which one of Cardinal Groer’s alleged victims accused him of sexually abusing him twenty years previously, when he was at school up in Lower Austria where Cardinal Groer was a headmaster at the time, at a Catholic school for boys. The editor of Profile then explained that he had told Cardinal Groer at least four weeks beforehand what he was going to do, and that there were several other abuse victims who did not want to mention their names because they were now in church employment and would therefore lose their jobs. But this one victim had gone forward, he was a man called Hartmann, whose life had been ruined. And he wrote, or sent messages to the Archdiocese, and said “listen, could we talk about this, and maybe if you explain, we will not publish”. But as he got no answer from, I think, four or five attempts, he decided to publish. And it was a worldwide explosion as far as Europe was concerned, because Groer was a Cardinal.
The Cardinal remained silent. At first, the first thing we knew was that on television, two bishops spoke out on the evening news and said “this was”, in rather pre-war Austrian manner, “a conspiracy against the Church”. Whereupon everybody sort of gasped, knowing that Profile was unlikely to support a conspiracy against the Church. Well, within hours, of course, these same bishops were begging Cardinal Groer to explain. No conspiracy, but a silent Cardinal. The Cardinal remained silent.
Stephen Crittenden: And of course there was a whole other episode in March 1998, when a seminarian – in fact, a number of seminarians – came forward and accused Groer of a whole other series of sexual abuse cases in the early 70s.
Christa Pongratz-Lippitt: That was three years later, but in the meanwhile he had – already before this broke out, in the autumn before, when he was 75 – sent in his resignation to the Pope.
Stephen Crittenden: So he’d resigned as Archbishop of Vienna, but remained the Chairman of the Austrian Bishops’ Conference.
Christa Pongratz-Lippitt: Well, when this broke he was still Chairman, and they had a dramatic session where he was re-elected by the conservatives. But in the end the other non-conservatives said this was quite impossible under the circumstances, and he stepped down. Rome indirectly interfered, in that it made the present Cardinal Schonborn then an auxiliary, made him co-adjutor, but didn’t do anything about Groer. Groer remained. He remained the entire summer, and then, as is usual, the Pope accepted his resignation because he was 75.
Well, this went on until a year later, we suddenly heard in 1997 or something, that he’d been made Prior of a Benedictine Abbey up in Lower Austria. And everybody said “wait a minute now, this has not been gone into”. No, no, Groer was made Prior. Well, that wasn’t too good. Then in 1998, the new scandal broke. Groer joined the Benedictines late in life, taking with him about nine novices; the Benedictine Abbey of Göttweig had not had that many new recruits since the Middle Ages or something. Suddenly, some of these monks said “we too, but we weren’t under age”, and came out with the most ghastly details. I mean, things like undressing in confessionals and so on. In the end Rome did something, they sent the head of the Benedictines, Marcel Rooney, to this Benedictine Abbey –
Stephen Crittenden: To investigate.
Christa Pongratz-Lippitt: – and he talked to all these monks, but we never heard again. He went to Rome. Finished.
Stephen Crittenden: Except that Cardinal Schonborn and several other Austrian Bishops –
Christa Pongratz-Lippitt: Yes. Four. Four of our main bishops – including, strangely enough, the Archbishop of Salzburg, then Georg Eder, who is very conservative, and who was one of the conservatives that were put in against the wish of Salzburg. But he – it must have been in the winter, because there was a television film, and you could see (old, he’s very old and frail) Bishop Eder walking up and down in the snow and saying “no, no, not in the confessional. Not in the confessional. Now that won’t do, he’s got to speak out. No, no, I can’t go along with this”. And the next morning, he and Cardinal Schonborn and Weber, and Capilari of Klagenfurt, all signed a declaration saying that to the best of their knowledge the allegations against Cardinal Groer were correct. Which bowled over, I think, the Bishops’ Conference which has been split ever since, completely split Austrian Catholics – and Groer remained silent.
Stephen Crittenden: And remained silent right up until his death.
Christa Pongratz-Lippitt: He did issue a small declaration. When the four bishops came out, he was apparently forced to issue a small declaration which said “if I am guilty … I apologise”.
Stephen Crittenden: You’ve estimated that around about fifty thousand Austrians have left the church.
Christa Pongratz-Lippitt: These are statistics that we get every year, and in certain years in the Groer years, and in the 1998 scandal, and the several scandals we have had, it’s been up to forty thousand to fifty thousand a year.
Stephen Crittenden: Directly as a result of this scandal?
Christa Pongratz-Lippitt: Well, that’s what the statistics tell us. In Austria, we have a State charge where you have to pay tax, and therefore you are registered with your local County Council. If you decide to leave the church, that is, if you don’t want to pay tax any more –
Stephen Crittenden: – you have to officially say so?
Christa Pongratz-Lippitt: You have to go along and register, and say “I am now leaving my church”. Otherwise you have to go on paying tax.
Stephen Crittenden: And did people leaving over this affair actually indicate that this was the reason they were leaving?
Christa Pongratz-Lippitt: Apparently. We don’t know. According to – well, Cardinal Schonborn has always said that he writes to every single person who leaves the church officially, to try and ask “why are you leaving, could you come along, we would like to talk to you, maybe you could re-think it”. And therefore they do know that roughly this is the reason. It also goes in waves, and there were huge waves of thousands after the Groer affair.
Stephen Crittenden: How has the death of Cardinal Groer been greeted by the Austrian public and the Austrian media?
Christa Pongratz-Lippitt: The interesting good broadsheets have not taken much notice of Cardinal Konig and Cardinal Schonborn’s appeal not to go into the shadows of Groer’s past.
Stephen Crittenden: Both released statements saying let bygones be bygones.
Christa Pongratz-Lippitt: They didn’t say bygones be bygones, but they said “please, we must forget all this, faced with the majesty of death, we pray for Groer, and we would ask you not to bring all the dirty linen out again”. They haven’t brought out the dirty linen in any nasty way, but they have gone into every detail, and said “this happened and this happened and this happened. He remained silent”. And above all, I don’t think it’s so much Groer, you know. I think if Groer – even from the beginning, perhaps even after it had all happened, after 1998 – if Cardinal Groer had got up and said “I’m awfully sorry, I just am a sick man, or I don’t know what happened, or I’m a bit – ” or if the Pope had said “listen, I think I’m having that man into the Gemelli Clinic in Rome”, Austria would have forgiven him. It’s not the man, it’s the church. It’s the way Rome and the hierarchy have dealt with this, and every paper has said “forget poor old Cardinal Groer, he probably was a completely disturbed man. It’s the church, it’s the church’s way of appointing bishops, it’s the church”. Which we know – I mean, you know, there is this sexual going-on, and they don’t realise it, they never admit it, they always cover it up. And in Austria’s case, I mean even faced with Cardinal law and the Irish problem everywhere, they’ve still done exactly the same thing: “please don’t talk, please forget it”. And I think the great attack is really, and what will come out in the future is, how did the church behave, and how did Rome behave – but not only Rome. What happened to the Holy Father?
Stephen Crittenden: He continued to be received by the Pope?
Christa Pongratz-Lippitt: He continued to be received and Rome said nothing. He had breakfast with the Pope, spent three-quarters of an hour with the Pope.
Stephen Crittenden: Christa, would you have to go back about sixty years to think of another Austrian Catholic who’d caused so much damage to the church?
Christa Pongratz-Lippitt: I think it’s generally understood in Austria, now, that it was the worst crisis since Hitler, and since Cardinal Innitzer signed that almost welcoming statement with “Heil Hitler” in 1938. I don’t think there’s been a crisis – in fact, I know there hasn’t. It’s the worst crisis we’ve ever had.
Stephen Crittenden: What will the long-term fallout be?
Christa Pongratz-Lippitt: I think there is this general mistrust, that despite all the Popes, and the bishops in the USA and in Ireland and in England, Cormac Murphy, are saying now “we will be transparent, a house of glass. We’ve really realised now our mistakes in the past, we will clear this up”, Austrians will say “ha! Don’t you believe it”.
Stephen Crittenden: The Tablet’s Vienna correspondent, Christa Pongratz-Lippitt.
And that’s all this week.
Guests on this program:
Ameer Ali
President, Australian Federation of Islamic Councils
Anna Bligh
Education Minister, Queensland State Government
Dadi Darmadi
Lecturer in Comparative Religion, State Institute of Islamic Studies, Jakarta
Najahan Musyfak
Deputy Secretary, Nahdlatul Ulama, Indonesia
Christa Pongratz-Lippitt
Vienna correspondent, The Tablet
Musical Items:
Lacrimosa
CD Title: Mozart: Requiem
Artist: Vienna Boys Choir/Vienna Volksoper Orchestra (cond. Peter Marschik)
Composer: Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
Label/CD No: Capriccio LC 8748 (1995)
Jibril Ibrahim
International Human Rights Law Group, Nigeria